[Community Town Hall on February 22, 2022.]
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GOOD AFTERNOON. AND WELCOME TO THE DALLAS COLLEGE COMMUNITY TOWN HALL.
WE'VE GOT AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION TODAY AND WE'RE GLAD THAT YOU COULD JOIN US.
I'M JUSTIN LENNON, THE CHANCELLOR ELECT HERE AT DALLAS COLLEGE.
AND AGAIN, WE JUST APPRECIATE EVERYBODY TAKING TIME TO JOIN US.
WE KNOW BETWEEN SCHOOL AND WORK AND YOUR PERSONAL LIVES.
YOUR TIME IS NOT ONLY LIMITED, BUT VALUABLE.
SO WE APPRECIATE YOUR SUPPORT AND PARTICIPATION TODAY IN THIS CONVERSATION THAT I KNOW RESONATES WITH WITH MANY OF US.
STUDENT LOAN DEBT IT'S ACTUALLY DESCRIBED AS A STUDENT LOAN CRISIS, WITH AN ESTIMATED FORTY FIVE MILLION STUDENT BORROWERS COLLECTIVELY OWING $1.7 TRILLION IN STUDENT DEBT.
WHETHER YOU'VE BEEN PERSONALLY IMPACTED OR YOUR CHILDREN OR YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS, WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT IT'S A GROWING ISSUE.
THAT'S A HUGE CHALLENGE FOR SO MANY FAMILIES.
SO TODAY IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN OPEN DIALOG AND SHARE WITH YOU SOME AFFORDABLE OPTIONS TO QUALITY EDUCATION THAT WE PROVIDE HERE AT DALLAS COLLEGE.
AND WE'VE GOT A GREAT TEAM THAT'S WITH US TODAY.
AND ALSO, KEEP IN MIND THAT WE'RE ACCEPTING LIVE QUESTIONS.
SO THROUGHOUT THE TOWN HALL, PLEASE SEND THOSE QUESTIONS TO TOWN HALL AT CD DOT EDU AND WE'LL TRY TO GET TO AS MANY AS POSSIBLE.
BUT LET ME TURN NOW TO THE CHANCELLOR MADE JUST FOR ME.
YOU'VE GOT A FEW DAYS LEFT WITH US, HERE'S CHANCELLOR, BUT WE KNOW THAT THIS TOPIC IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO YOU. IN FACT, YOU HAD THE THE EXECUTIVE TEAM MEMBERS ALL READ THE BOOK THAT WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT TODAY.
SO WE KNOW IT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU, BUT SHARE A LITTLE BIT YOUR YOUR THOUGHTS AND WHY YOU WANTED US TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION BEFORE YOU LEFT THE ROLE OF CHANCELLOR.
NO. AND AND JUSTIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING CHANCELLOR ELECT.
YOU KNOW, THE DALLAS COLLEGE IS IN GREAT HANDS AND REALLY EXCITING AS I THINK ABOUT THE THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS.
WHAT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE? SO BEST? BEST WISHES TO YOU IN THIS TRANSITION.
AND I REALLY DID FEEL LIKE THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT TOPIC FOR FOR US TO BE TALKING ABOUT AND REALLY APPRECIATE BOTH OF OUR GUESTS.
THE AUTHOR, JOSH MITCHELL FOR JOINING US AND KATRINA JAMES WITH THE DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE FOR BEING A PART OF THIS.
BUT YOU KNOW, AS AS OFTEN HAPPENS, YOU KNOW IT AND NO OFFENSE, JOSH, THIS THIS BOOK WASN'T ON MY READING LIST ORIGINALLY AND THEN I HAD THE PLEASURE OF OF TALKING TO YOU.
YOU WERE WORKING ON A VERY DIFFERENT STORY AND FOR THE FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND JUST MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE UP AGAINST A DEADLINE.
AND I HAVE THIS PRACTICE FOR FOUR YEARS.
IF I MEET SOMEONE THAT'S EITHER JUST WRITTEN A BOOK OR WRITTEN A BOOK AND AND I'LL I'LL READ IT. AND I LOOKED AND HAD TO PREORDER IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T OUT YET.
AND THEN THE MOMENT IT BECAME AVAILABLE, I PICKED IT UP AND READ IT AND LITERALLY READ IT OVER A WEEKEND. I COULDN'T PUT IT DOWN ONCE, ONCE, ONCE I GOT STARTED WITH IT AND THE AND AND HONESTLY, JOSH, NO OFFENSE.
IT WASN'T BECAUSE IT WAS A GREAT STORY AS A TERRIBLE STORY ABOUT WHAT WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE AND WHAT, WHAT, WHAT THE THE LOAN DEBT HAS DONE TO INDIVIDUALS AND FRANKLY, ALL OF US IN SO MANY WAYS.
BUT YOU PUT IT TOGETHER IN A WAY THAT REALLY HELPED CLARIFY SOMETHING THAT EVEN THOUGH I'VE BEEN IN THIS BUSINESS AT THE EXECUTIVE LEVEL FOR OVER 40 YEARS RESPONSIBLE FOR AID PROGRAMS AT COLLEGES, I DID NOT KNOW SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE TAKING PLACE AND OFTEN HOW IT IMPACTED STUDENTS.
SO, YOU KNOW, THIS REALLY IS WHY I'M EXCITED TO HAVE IT HERE TO SHARE THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION WITH FROM YOUR BOOK THE THE DEBT TRAP AND THE, YOU KNOW, REALLY GETTING WITH NOT JUST POLICY ISSUES, BUT PERSONAL STORIES OF HOW IT IMPACTS STUDENTS AND PARENTS AND FAMILIES, HOW INDIVIDUALS REALLY WANTING THAT TICKET TO A BETTER LIFE THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET THROUGH EDUCATION BUT BELIEVE THAT THAT THE ONLY WAY FOR THEM TO GET THERE WAS BY TAKING ON ENORMOUS DEBT AND WE MEAN ENORMOUS DEBT.
YOU KNOW, I I WAS SO MOVED BY BY THE BOOK.
AS JUSTIN SAID, I IMMEDIATELY ORDERED COPIES FOR ALL OF OUR LEADERSHIP TEAM, AND WE'VE DISCUSSED IT ACTUALLY COLLECTIVELY NOW IN THREE DIFFERENT SETTINGS TO REALLY GET AT THE DETAILS. AND BUT NOT JUST ABOUT THE BOOK, BUT BUT WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM IT AND WHAT IT MEANS IS WE AND WE ENGAGE WITH WITH STUDENTS.
SO I REALLY THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US.
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AND AND ALSO YOU MET, I BELIEVE, LAST WEEK WITH MANY OF OUR STUDENTS AND THE JOURNALISM PROGRAM. AND THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME JUST TO SHARE THAT BACKGROUND AS WELL.I I REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR GENEROSITY OF OF YOUR TIME AND ENGAGING WITH US BOTH TODAY AND THEN.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU IN DALLAS COLLEGE.
YES, THANK YOU. I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.
AND AS I SAID LAST WEEK, YOU KNOW, I SPENT THREE YEARS WRITING THE BOOK AND I HAD THIS NAGGING THOUGHT OF WHAT ANYONE READ IT.
AND SO IT'S GREAT TO HEAR THAT NOT ONLY DID PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF READ IT, BUT THAT THEY THEY LEARNED SOMETHING FROM IT.
AND I'M EAGER TO TO TALK AND FIELD ANY ANY QUESTIONS AND JUST HAVE AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION GOING.
SO I THINK YOU WANT ME TO START WITH A FEW MINUTES.
JUST TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK IS NOW THE TIME FOR ME? YEAH, THAT WOULD. THAT WOULD BE GREAT IF YOU WOULD JUST KIND OF, YOU KNOW WHAT? HOW DO YOU GOT INTO THE BOOK AND A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT AND WHY YOU FELT THIS WAS IMPORTANT TO SPEND THREE YEARS OF YOUR LIFE WORKING ON IT? THAT'S INCREDIBLE. SURE.
SO I'M AN ECONOMICS REPORTER, AND SO AS AN ECONOMICS REPORTER, WE WRITE ABOUT NUMBERS A LOT AND WHAT THE NUMBERS TELL US, WHETHER GDP IS GROWING, WHETHER INFLATION IS GOING UP.
AND THIS STARTED AS AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE.
I HAD STARTED COVERING HIGHER EDUCATION IN 2012, AND ONE OF THE BIGGEST TREND LINES THAT YOU CAN SEE WHEN YOU'RE COVERING THE ECONOMY IS THE COST OF HIGHER EDUCATION THAT'S GONE UP AT TRIPLE THE RATE OF INFLATION JUST THIS CENTURY.
AND SO WHENEVER SOMETHING THAT DRAMATIC HAPPENS AS A REPORTER, IT'S AN INSTANT STORY IDEA TO TRY AND EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING.
AND I JUST SO I WROTE A STORY IN 2012.
THERE WAS A FEDERAL AGENCY THAT PUT OUT A REPORT THAT I THINK I BROKE THE STORY THAT SAID THAT STUDENT DEBT CROSSED A TRILLION DOLLARS.
THAT WAS A BIG THRESHOLD AND THAT INSTANTLY GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION.
A LOT OF PEOPLE READ THAT STORY, AND IT TOLD ME THAT THERE WAS A REALLY BIG APPETITE OUT THERE TO WRITE MORE ABOUT THIS TOPIC.
AND THE MORE I WROTE ABOUT IT, THE MORE I WOULD GET FEEDBACK FROM READERS.
HIGHER EDUCATION IS A VERY POLARIZING ISSUE, AS YOU CAN SEE WITH OUR POLITICS THESE DAYS.
SOME PEOPLE SAY COLLEGE IS JUST, YOU KNOW, IS A SHAM AND IT'S NOT WORTH IT.
AND COLLEGES ARE DECEIVING STUDENTS AND THEY'RE WASTING PEOPLE'S MONEY, TAXPAYERS' MONEY.
I'LL GET A LOT OF EMAILS FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.
I WOULD GET OTHER EMAILS FROM PEOPLE SAYING, YOU KNOW, COLLEGE HELPED ME GET A, YOU KNOW, GET A GOOD JOB AND STUDENT LOANS HELPED ME ACHIEVE THAT.
AND SO I'VE TALKED WITH PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT STUDENT LOANS WAS A GOOD INVESTMENT, BUT OVERWHELMINGLY, I GOT EMAILS.
THESE HORRIFYING EMAILS FROM PEOPLE SAYING STUDENT LOANS HAVE RUINED MY, MY, MY LIFE.
AND I REMEMBER I WROTE A STORY IN TWENTY FIFTEEN THAT BASICALLY SAID THERE WAS A FEDERAL STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM THAT PEOPLE HAD DISCOVERED AND WERE APPLYING TO THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT TO GET THEIR LOANS FORGIVEN.
SO I DID A STORY ON THAT AND IT PUBLISHED ON JD.COM IN THE MID-AFTERNOON AND WITHIN MINUTES. I ADD MY OUTLOOK EMAIL BOX OPEN, AND THERE WAS JUST EMAILS POPPING UP, AND I COULDN'T KEEP UP WITH THEM LITERALLY EVERY SECOND.
A NEW EMAIL ON THE OUTLOOK POPPED UP AND I HAD TO PUT UP AN AWAY MESSAGE.
AND I SAID, IF YOU'RE WRITING TO ME ABOUT THIS, THIS ARTICLE, I WILL HAVE A.
EXCUSE ME, IF YOU'RE WRITING TO ME ABOUT THIS ARTICLE, I WILL HAVE A BLOG POST UP TO FURTHER EXPLAIN WHAT THIS PROGRAM IS.
AND THE NEXT DAY, I COUNTED ALL THOSE EMAILS AND THERE WERE ABOUT SEVEN HUNDRED EMAILS, AND I EVENTUALLY WENT THROUGH THEM AND THEY WERE ALL JUST THESE LIKE REALLY HEARTBREAKING STORIES OF PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY AND, EXCUSE ME, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY TELLING ME HOW THEY TOOK OUT HUNDREDS OF, YOU KNOW, IN SOME CASES, ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS IN STUDENT DEBT.
SOMETIMES IT WAS TEN THOUSAND OR TWENTY THOUSAND BECAUSE THEY REALLY FELT LIKE THEY WERE MAKING AN INVESTMENT IN THEIR FUTURE AND THEY WENT TO A SCHOOL.
OFTEN IT WAS A TRADE SCHOOL, BUT NOT NOT ALWAYS FOR PROFIT SCHOOL, AND THEY THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO DO THIS SHORT TWO YEAR PROGRAM COME OUT AND GET A GOOD JOB.
AND INSTEAD THEY REALIZED THAT NOT ONLY WAS THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION THAT THEY WERE GETTING NOT UP TO WHAT THEY EXPECTED, BUT WHEN THEY CAME OUT OF THE SCHOOLS PROGRAM, THEY COULDN'T FIND A JOB AND THEY WERE LEFT WITH ALL OF THIS DEBT THAT THEY COULDN'T REPAY AND THEY WOULD JUST WATCH THE BALANCE GO UP EVERY WEEK OR IN A LOT OF CASES, THEY WOULDN'T
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EVEN WATCH IT GO UP BECAUSE THEY WERE SO ASHAMED TO CLICK INTO THEIR BANK ACCOUNT OR THEIR THEIR STUDENT LOAN ACCOUNT.THEY WERE SO ASHAMED THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO DO THAT, AND THEY COULDN'T TELL ME HOW MUCH THEY OWED BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T EVEN KEEP UP WITH THE MINIMUM PAYMENT.
AND SO IT'S LITERALLY LIKE YOU'RE IN QUICKSAND.
AND ONE OF THESE EMAILS WAS FROM THIS WOMAN WHO WAS A SINGLE MOM WHO HAD CANCER.
I READ HER EMAIL AND I THOUGHT, THIS CAN'T BE TRUE.
SO THIS WOMAN WHO HAD BREAST CANCER AND WAS IN BANKRUPTCY BECAUSE SHE HAD SPENT NEARLY 20 YEARS PAYING DOWN HER STUDENT LOANS, BUT THEY WEREN'T GOING DOWN, THEY WERE GOING UP BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T. SHE WAS PAYING $700 A MONTH, AND YET SHE STILL COULDN'T DENT THE PRINCIPAL. SHE WAS PAYING ONLY INTEREST.
AND SO A LOT OF TIMES, MOST TIMES AS A REPORTER, WHAT HE STARTED ON THE STORY, YOU MERELY DISCOVER A PROBLEM AND THEN YOU FIGURE OUT, OK, WHAT'S THE WHAT'S THE WHAT'S THE REASONING BEHIND THIS PROBLEM? WHAT'S CAUSING IT? AND I READ THIS EMAIL AND I'M LOOKING AT THE DATA, WHETHER IT'S THE SKYROCKETING PRICE OF EDUCATION, WHETHER IT'S THE FACT THAT EIGHT MILLION PEOPLE ARE IN DEFAULT ON THEIR LOANS, WHETHER IT'S THE FACT THAT THE.
THE DELINQUENCY RATE WAS TWENTY FIVE PERCENT AT ONE POINT, WHICH WAS MORE LIKE TRIPLE THE DELINQUENCY RATE ALMOST OF WHAT IT WAS FOR MORTGAGES DURING THE HOUSING CRISIS.
AND YOU JUST LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHOSE BALANCES ARE RISING, NOT FALLING.
THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU'RE UPSIDE DOWN ON YOUR LOAN.
AND AS A REPORTER, YOU'RE LIKE, OK, THIS THERE'S A PROBLEM HERE.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? AND I SPENT YEARS TRYING TO INVESTIGATE THAT, AND I WAS DETERMINED TO TALK TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON AS AS EVERY SINGLE PERSON I COULD.
I TALKED TO THE 90 YEAR OLD CONGRESSIONAL CLERK WHO WROTE THE FIRST STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM IN NINETEEN FIFTY SEVEN.
SHE WROTE THE BILL THAT GOT THE GOVERNMENT INTO THE BUSINESS OF STUDENT LENDING.
I TALKED TO EVERY SINGLE CEO OF SALLIE MAE.
I TALKED TO HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS.
I TALKED TO SCHOOL PRESIDENTS AND MY BOOK IS BASICALLY THE CULMINATION OF THAT.
I SPENT THREE YEARS WRITING THE BOOK, BUT I SPENT A DECADE COVERING THIS, AND IT'S THE CULMINATION OF THAT. AND I JUST WANTED TO PUT OUT INTO THE WORLD WHAT I LEARNED, AND I DO ARGUE THAT THE STUDENT LOAN SYSTEM IS BROKEN.
IF YOU CAN, IF YOU ASK ANYONE WHAT THEIR MORTGAGE RATE WAS AND HOW MUCH THEY PAID FOR A HOUSE, THEY WOULD TELL YOU DOWN TO THE DECIMAL POINT WITH THEIR MORTGAGE RATE IS AND WHAT THEY PAID FOR THAT HOUSE, EVEN IF IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO.
IF YOU ASK STUDENTS HOW MUCH DO THEY OWE AND WHAT THEIR INTEREST RATE IS, NO ONE KNOWS AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TUITION IS EVERY YEAR, AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHY THE BALANCE IS RISING AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT FORBEARANCE IS, AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN FORBEARANCE. AND THEY DON'T KNOW THAT TUITIONS ARE GOING TO RISE ABOUT FOUR PERCENT EVERY YEAR. AT LEAST IT HAD BEEN FOR A WHILE FROM FRESHMAN YEAR TO SENIOR YEAR, AND SO THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO OWE WHEN THEY GET OUT AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE INTEREST RATES ARE GOING TO BE.
AND ALL OF A SUDDEN IT TURNS INTO QUICKSAND.
AND I DISCOVERED THAT THIS IS NOT JUST A FEW OUTLIERS, BUT THIS IS A BROAD PROBLEM, AND IT HAS VERY, VERY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, WHETHER IT'S THEIR ABILITY TO BUY A HOUSE OR THEIR ABILITY TO SAVE FOR RETIREMENT.
THE WOMAN I JUST TOLD YOU ABOUT KNOW SHE WAS IN HER FIFTIES AND HER KIDS GOING OFF TO COLLEGE, AND SHE HAS $10000 IN HER RETIREMENT ACCOUNT BECAUSE SHE HAD SPENT SO MUCH PAYING HER STUDENT LOANS EVERY YEAR, EVERY MONTH.
SO I JUST I WROTE THIS BOOK TO REALLY ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
YOU KNOW WHY? WHY DID ALL OF THIS? HOW DID THIS? HOW DID WE GET INTO THIS MESS? AND I OFFER A FEW IDEAS AT THE END OF THE BOOK FOR HOW DO WE GET OUT OF IT? AND I JUST WANTED TO TELL PEOPLE STORIES.
AND DR MAY IS, AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN IN THIS BUSINESS AS LONG AS MOST PEOPLE HAVE BEEN AND IN THE HIGHER EDUCATION INDUSTRY AND AND AND YOU LEARN SOMETHING FROM IT. AND I JUST FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TELL PEOPLE STORIES, THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO REALLY SORT OF GET AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROBLEM.
SO THANK YOU AND I'M EAGER TO TALK, TALK MORE ABOUT IT.
WELL, THANK THANK YOU AND AND AGAIN, APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US AND BEING WILLING TO SHARE THIS. JUSTIN.
YEAH, JOSH, THANKS FOR FOR THAT BACKGROUND.
THE BOOK IS CERTAINLY SOBERING, AS DR MAY INDICATED, AND APPRECIATE YOU SHARING THOSE STORIES AND APPRECIATE YOU TAKING TIME IN THIS CONVERSATION TODAY.
WE'VE ALSO GOT ANOTHER SPECIAL GUEST HERE WITH US KATRINA JAMES, WHO'S THE MANAGING DIRECTOR OF THE DALLAS COUNTY, PROMISE THAT IT'S GOING TO PROMISES A PROGRAM THAT WORKS TO REDUCE FINANCIAL AND OTHER KINDS OF BARRIERS TO SUPPORT STUDENTS IN THEIR PATH TO A
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REWARDING CAREER.SO KATRINA, THANK YOU FOR TAKING TIME WITH US TODAY TO ENGAGE IN THIS CONVERSATION.
SO WITH THAT, LET'S LET'S DOVE INTO SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WE'VE BEGUN TO RECEIVE.
AGAIN, WE'VE GOT SOME THAT ARE ALREADY COMING IN, BUT BUT KEEP THEM COMING TO TOWN HALL AT CD EDU AND THE FIRST QUESTION IS FOR YOU, JOSH, YOU REFERENCED A COUPLE OF TIMES IN YOUR YOUR BACKGROUND.
AND SO THE QUESTION REALLY IS AND AGAIN, YOU REFERENCED SOME OF THIS.
BUT BUT HOW SEVERE WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE STUDENT LOAN DEBT LANDSCAPE IS FOR THE U.S.
AND FOR INDIVIDUALS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE THAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD, ALL THESE DIFFERENT ECONOMIC FACTORS THAT ARE HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, HOW HOW WOULD YOU RANK THIS IN TERMS OF ISSUE AND CRISIS FOR INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES? WELL, I DO CALL IT A CATASTROPHE, SO I DO ARGUE IT'S A VERY BIG PROBLEM.
AND. ONE OF THE CENTRAL QUESTIONS THAT I WAS POSED THAT I WAS ASKED BY PUBLISHERS WHEN I WAS TRYING TO GET A BOOK DEAL WAS WHEN IS THE CRISIS GOING TO HAPPEN? WHEN WHEN IS THE ECONOMY GOING TO CRASH? THIS IS JUST THIS IS JUST LIKE HOUSING.
AND ANY MINUTE NOW THE ECONOMY IS GOING TO CRASH.
AND I HAD AND I WOULD TELL PEOPLE REPEATEDLY, AND I'LL SAY IT NOW, LIKE THE CRISIS IS HERE, IT'S ALREADY HERE.
AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOW AND THEN IS THE MONEY.
BACK THEN WAS ON THE PRIVATE SECTOR'S BOOKS.
IT WAS ON THE IT WAS THE BANKS HAD ALL OF THE WHAT YOU CAN CALL TOXIC ASSETS OR.
LOANS THAT ARE NOT GOING TO GET REPAID THIS TIME, ALMOST ALL OF IT IS ON THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT'S BOOKS.
AND I THINK THAT THAT, IN ESSENCE, IS WHY PEOPLE HAVEN'T SEEN A CRISIS.
IT'S ACTUALLY A MORE PERNICIOUS PROBLEM.
IT'S IT'S THE FROG SLOWLY BOILING IN THE POT, NOT KNOWING IT'S BOILING.
AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, IF ALL OF THIS MONEY, THIS ONE POINT SIX TRILLION DOLLARS IN CASH WAS HELD BY WELLS FARGO AND JPMORGAN AND ALL THESE OTHER BANKS, THERE WOULD BE SOME TYPE OF FINANCIAL CRISIS, JUST LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN HOUSING.
BUT RIGHT NOW, THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT HAS IT ON HIS ON ITS BOOKS, AND CONGRESS JUST REAUTHORIZES THE PROGRAM EVERY YEAR.
AND AND A LOT OF AND A LOT OF WAYS IT'S YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT, OVERSTATED MISSTATED HOW MUCH PEOPLE ARE REPAYING.
AND SO I THINK CONGRESS AND A LOT OF POLICYMAKERS HAVE CONVENIENTLY IGNORED SOME OF THE BIGGER PROBLEMS IN THE NAME OF KEEPING THE TRAINS RUNNING ON TIME IN THE NAME OF CONTINUING TO GIVE PEOPLE ACCESS.
AS LOANS HAVE BECOME THE THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE, THE EASIEST WAY FOR CONGRESS TO TO GET PEOPLE INTO THE COLLEGE OF THEIR CHOICE TO AT LEAST ALLOW THEM TO TO COVER THEIR TUITION, BUT TO NOT HAVE TAXPAYERS COVER THAT FULL EXPENSE.
AND AND SO, YOU KNOW, IF IF YOU LOOK AT THE CONSEQUENCES OF ALL THAT, I THINK THE CRISIS IS HERE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT ANYWHERE FROM SIX TO EIGHT MILLION PEOPLE HAVE DEFAULTED ON THEIR LOANS.
THAT'S ROUGHLY THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR HOMES TO FORECLOSURE AFTER THE HOUSING CRASH.
JUST TO PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE AGAIN, ONE IN FOUR STUDENTS IN REPAYMENT WERE DELINQUENT ON THEIR LOANS BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.
ONE IN FIVE STUDENTS, ONE IN FOUR STUDENTS, DEPENDING ON THE MONTH IN THE YEAR.
THAT IS MORE THAN DOUBLE THE EIGHT OR NINE PERCENT DELINQUENCY RATE ON MORTGAGES AT THE HEIGHT OF THE HOUSING CRASH.
IF YOU LOOK AT SUBPRIME LENDING.
YOU KNOW, I ONE TIME ASKED A COMPANY TO CRUNCH THE NUMBERS AND LOOK AT HOW MANY SUBPRIME LOANS WERE OUT THERE, HOW MANY LOANS STUDENT LOANS WENT TO PEOPLE WITH REALLY BAD CREDIT, AND THAT WAS MORE THAN DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH SUBPRIME LOANS AT THE HEIGHT OF THE SUBPRIME LENDING CRISIS IN THE TWO THOUSAND.
SO IF YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT METRICS TO DETERMINE HOW BIG THE PROBLEM WAS, IT'S A VERY BIG PROBLEM.
SO LIKE WHEN I WHEN I WHEN I STATED THE WOMAN WHO COULDN'T SAVE FOR RETIREMENT, OK, I THINK THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIKE THAT.
BUT LIKE, YOU DON'T SEE THAT ON THE STREET.
LIKE, YOU DON'T WALK AROUND AND WALK BY SOMEONE AND SAY, OH, THAT WOMAN DOESN'T HAVE
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RETIREMENT MONEY BECAUSE OF HER STUDENT LOAN.YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THAT. WHEREAS DURING THE HOUSING CRISIS, IF YOU WALKED IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND SAW ABANDONED HOMES, YOU KNOW, WITH WEEDS GROWING OUT OF THE YARD, THAT WAS A REALLY TANGIBLE WAY TO KNOW THAT THERE WAS A HOUSING CRISIS GOING ON.
OR IF, LIKE STORES SHUT DOWN, YOU KNOW, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE HOUSING CRASH, LIKE YOU JUST YOU COULD SEE UP CLOSE THE EFFECTS OF THE HOUSING CRASH WITH STUDENT LOANS.
IT'S MORE PERNICIOUS AND HARD TO SEE ON A DAILY BASIS.
AND AGAIN, IT'S NOT CAUSING A FINANCIAL CRISIS ON WALL STREET.
AND SO THEREFORE, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE FRAMED THIS IN THEIR MIND THAT EVERYTHING IS OK.
AND I THINK THE STATUS QUO HAS BECOME SO ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE OF THAT.
AND YET AGAIN, I THINK THAT IT'S HAVING THESE PERNICIOUS EFFECT EFFECTS THAT ARE GOING TO LAST 10, 20, 30, 40 YEARS AND HAVE A GENERATIONAL EFFECT THAT UNLESS WE STEP BACK AND CONSIDER ALL THAT, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE A FULL SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM.
THANK YOU FOR THAT. KATRINA, LET ME TURN TO YOU, AND LET'S FOCUS LOCAL HERE JUST A LITTLE BIT. YOU KNOW, FOR FOR PEOPLE THAT MAY NOT BE FAMILIAR WITH THE DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE, CAN CAN YOU SHARE A LITTLE BIT OF AN OVERVIEW ABOUT ABOUT THE DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE? SURE. THANK YOU, DR.
LANE. AND FIRST, LET ME EXTEND A GREAT THANK YOU TO CHANCELLOR MAY, WHO WAS REALLY ONE OF THE PIONEERS AND CHAMPIONS THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FOUNDING OF DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE. WE ARE PART OF THE COMMIT PARTNERSHIP, WHICH IS AN ORGANIZATION HERE IN DALLAS, WHO IS COMMITTED TO EVERYONE BEING ABLE TO ACCESS A LIVABLE WAGE REGARDLESS OF RACE, PLACE OR SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS.
SO WE BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO EARN AT THIS POINT.
WE'VE SET THAT NUMBER AT $50000.
AND WHAT CAN WE DO AS AN ORGANIZATION TO HELP PEOPLE ACCESS THAT? SO THERE ARE OTHER COALITIONS THAT WORK ON THINGS LIKE PRE-K, ENROLLMENT AND HIGH QUALITY TEACHING, AND OUR COALITION IS REALLY ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE ACCESS POST-SECONDARY OPTIONS THAT WILL LEAD TO THOSE CAREERS.
SO JUST TO SET THE STAGE A LITTLE BIT IF YOU TAKE THE EIGHTH GRADE GRADUATING COHORT OF STUDENTS IN DALLAS COUNTY IN TWO THOUSAND NINE AND YOU LOOK 10 YEARS LATER AT THOSE STUDENTS, ONLY 18 PERCENT OF THOSE STUDENTS WILL HAVE OBTAINED A POST-SECONDARY CREDENTIAL WITHIN THAT 10 YEAR PERIOD.
SO WE GIVE THEM SIX YEARS TO GET THAT POST-SECONDARY CREDENTIAL AND THAT ATTAINMENT RATE IS REALLY LOW JUST TO TO ADD A FINER POINT TO THE NEED.
SIXTY FIVE PERCENT OF THE HIGH DEMAND REASONABLE WAGE CAREERS IN DALLAS COUNTY REQUIRES SOME KIND OF POST-SECONDARY CREDENTIAL, SO IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE A TWO YEAR OR A FOUR YEAR DEGREE.
IT COULD BE SOME KIND OF CERTIFICATION, BUT ALL OF THAT TO SAY THAT THE HIGH SCHOOL CREDENTIAL IS NOT ENOUGH.
SO WE TAKE A GROUP OF STUDENTS, WE HAVE A COHORT MODEL.
OUR COHORT OF STUDENTS IS ABOUT TWENTY TWO THOUSAND PER YEAR.
WE HAVE FIFTY SEVEN HIGH SCHOOLS ACROSS 11 SCHOOL DISTRICTS HERE IN DALLAS COUNTY.
AND THE WAY THAT THE SCHOOLS ARE SELECTED FOR OUR COHORT IS WE LOOK FOR THE SCHOOLS THAT HAVE THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF STUDENTS EXPERIENCING POVERTY.
SO THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE IDENTIFIED THE GREATEST NEED IN OFFERING SUPPORTS FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION.
SO IF YOU ARE IN THAT COHORT HIGH SCHOOL AND YOU ELECT TO WANT TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE PROMISED SCHOLARSHIP, YOU COMPLETE YOUR APPLICATION PROCESS, YOUR FINANCIAL AID FORM AND YOU SUCCESSFULLY ENROLL AT DALLAS COLLEGE OR ONE OF OUR FOUR YEAR PARTNERS.
YOUR TUITION IS FULLY COVERED, AND THAT IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU ARE AN UNDOCUMENTED STUDENT, SO DACA AND DREAMER STUDENTS ARE ELIGIBLE.
THERE IS NOT A GPA REQUIREMENT.
IF OUR FOUR-YEAR INSTITUTION HAS A REQUIREMENT, YOU DO HAVE TO MEET THOSE ADMISSIONS REQUIREMENTS. BUT FOR US IT IS.
IF YOU'RE PART OF OUR COHORT AND YOU COMPLETE YOUR APPLICATION STEPS, YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR A FULL TUITION SCHOLARSHIP AND THAT IS SIGNIFICANT, WE PROMISE, WILL OFFER SUPPORT TO STUDENTS AND FAMILIES DURING THIS PROCESS.
SO WE'LL HAVE OFFICE HOURS FOR STUDENTS AND FAMILIES CAN EITHER COME IN PERSON OR LOG ON ZOOM AND GET HELP WITH THEIR FINANCIAL AID APPLICATION OR ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT ADMISSIONS.
WE WILL OFFER SUPPORT OVER THE SUMMER TO MAKE SURE THAT STUDENTS CAN ENROLL.
IF YOU NEED HELP SUBMITTING YOUR RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT OR GETTING YOUR TRANSCRIPT OR GETTING PROOF OF YOUR MENINGITIS, WE CAN OFFER SUPPORTS THERE.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, RECOGNIZING THAT OUR VERY SMALL TEAM CAN'T DO ALL OF THAT WORK OURSELVES FOR THESE TWENTY TWO THOUSAND SENIORS EVERY YEAR.
WE DO ALSO OFFER SUPPORT TO THE HIGH SCHOOLS TO HELP THEM BUILD THE CAPACITY FOR DOING IT THEMSELVES. THE THING I THINK THAT I AM EQUALLY AS EXCITED ABOUT THAT THAT OUR PROMISE PARTNERS COMMIT TO.
IN ADDITION TO THIS TUITION SCHOLARSHIP ARE THE POST ENROLLMENT SUPPORTS SO.
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SO YOU'VE GOTTEN TO DALLAS COLLEGE NOW WHAT? WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO HELP ENSURE THAT YOU'RE SUCCESSFUL THERE? AND I'M I'M REALLY EXCITED THAT DALLAS COLLEGE OFFERS A NUMBER OF ADDITIONAL SUPPORTS TO STUDENTS THAT TO ELIMINATE OTHER BARRIERS, TRANSPORTATION PASSES, FOOD BANKS, TEXTBOOKS.SO IT'S GREAT IF YOU CAN GET INTO THE CLASSROOM.
BUT IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE TEXTBOOK, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO LEARN.
AND SO ALL OF THOSE ADDITIONAL SUPPORTS THE DALLAS COLLEGE AND OUR OTHER PARTNERS OFFER ARE ESSENTIAL IN THAT.
AND THERE ARE SUCCESS COACHES AS WELL THAT CHECK IN WITH THE STUDENTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE PROGRESSING AND TO FIND THEM ADDITIONAL SUPPORT IF THEY NEED IT.
SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS SORT OF ROLL INTO THIS SERIES OF SERVICES THAT WE HAVE WITH OUR STAKEHOLDERS AND PARTNERS, AFTER WHICH WE HOPE PEOPLE WILL ACCESS POST-SECONDARY OPTIONS AND BE SUCCESSFUL THERE.
AND WE'RE VERY CLEAR IN SAYING THE BEST POST-SECONDARY OPTION BECAUSE WE KNOW FOR SOME OF OUR STUDENTS IF THEY DON'T. ON A TWO YEAR OR FOUR YEAR DEGREE, THEY MIGHT WANT ONE OF DALLAS COLLEGE'S CERTIFICATE PROGRAMS, OR THEY MIGHT WANT TO ENROLL AT YEAR UP, WHICH IS A GREAT PARTNER TO BOTH DALLAS COLLEGE AND DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE AND DO INTERNSHIP TRAININGS ESSENTIALLY AND THEN GET PLACED WITH A PARTNER.
SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE REALLY ESSENTIAL, AND WE HOPE THAT THAT THEY HELP TO GIVE EVERYONE NOT ONLY ACCESS TO OPPORTUNITIES, BUT HOPE THAT THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S ATTAINABLE FOR THEM.
DR. MURRAY, LET ME TURN TO YOU, AS AS KATRINA REFERENCED, YOU WERE ONE OF THE DRIVING FORCES BEHIND THE DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE AND JUST KIND OF SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS OF WHY YOU THOUGHT THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT INITIATIVE.
YEAH. WELL, LET ME LET ME SAY, AFTER READING JOSH'S BOOK, IT WAS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAT WE WE FIND A WAY TO GET PEOPLE IN COLLEGE DEBT FREE.
YOU KNOW, WE WE REALLY SAW SEVERAL GROUPS OF STUDENTS AND NO ONE FITS NEATLY INTO THE CATEGORY. BUT I WAS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THOSE INDIVIDUALS THAT GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL, BUT WHO WERE RAISED IN FAMILIES THAT REALLY BELIEVE THAT COLLEGE WAS UNATTAINABLE, THAT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL AID OPPORTUNITIES THAT DIDN'T UNDERSTAND COMMUNITY COLLEGES AND THE LOW PRICE OF TUITION.
AND WE'RE REALLY WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO PARTICIPATE IN TODAY'S ECONOMY, YOU NEED SOME TYPE OF POST-SECONDARY EXPERIENCE.
MAYBE NOT A BACHELOR'S DEGREE, MAYBE NOT EVEN AN ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE, BUT A CREDENTIAL THAT WILL GET YOU INTO THE WORKFORCE.
AND THE TRUTH WAS THAT IT WAS ALREADY THE RESOURCES WERE THERE TO COVER THE COST.
THEY JUST DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY WERE RAISED IN FAMILIES THAT TOLD THEM ALL THEIR LIVES.
YOU CAN'T GO TO COLLEGE BECAUSE WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.
AND AND OF COURSE, JOSH, YOU'RE DESCRIBING THE OTHER GROUP THAT SAID, DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE MONEY. WELL, IT'LL ALL WORK OUT FOR YOU.
AND I THINK BOTH GROUPS REALLY END UP PAYING A PRICE ALONG THE WAY.
IT DOESN'T TRY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE VALUE OF IT.
ANOTHER GIFT SET, BUT INCURS DEBT THAT GETS IN THE WAY THERE ARE FUTURE.
SO THE DALLAS COUNTY PROMISE WAS REALLY ABOUT ELIMINATING BOTH OF THOSE TWO EXTREMES AND REALLY HELPING CREATE THAT PATHWAY WHERE INDIVIDUALS COULD GET A HIGH QUALITY EDUCATION AND LEAVE DEBT FREE.
AND AS KATRINA SAID, WE, YOU KNOW, THAT MEANS ALSO OTHER SUPPORT BECAUSE THERE'S MORE TO GO INTO COLLEGE THAN JUST TUITION FEES AND BOOKS.
THANK YOU, DOCTOR MA'AM. WELL, KEEP THOSE QUESTIONS COMING.
WE'RE GETTING SEVERAL THAT ARE COMING IN AGAIN AT TOWN HALL AND CD2.
AND JOSH, LET ME TURN BACK TO YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS THAT HAVE COME IN.
ONE IS YOU REFERENCED EARLIER LOAN FORGIVENESS AS YOU WERE DOING YOUR YOUR RESEARCH INITIALLY. SO THE QUESTION HAS COME IN THAT BIDEN ADMINISTRATION RECENTLY EXTENDED A PAUSE ON FEDERAL STUDENT LOAN PAYMENTS THROUGH MAY 1ST.
IS THERE ANY INDICATION THIS PAUSE WILL BE EXTENDED OR A PORTION OF THE LOANS CANCELED? THERE'S NO INDICATION YET THAT IT'S GOING TO BE EXTENDED, IT'S ALREADY BEEN EXTENDED, CANCELED. IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKELY, AT LEAST NOT THE BLANKET FORGIVENESS THAT ADVOCATES SUCH AS ELIZABETH WARREN AND BERNIE SANDERS HAVE CALLED FOR.
YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHEN HE WAS ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, ENDORSE THIS IDEA OF CANCELING TEN THOUSAND ACROSS THE BOARD.
HE GOT INTO OFFICE AND IMMEDIATELY SAID, LOOK, I DON'T THINK I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THIS AS A AS AS AN ADMINISTRATIVE, AS AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH.
THIS HAS TO COME FROM CONGRESS.
CONGRESS KEEPS ON SAYING NO, DO IT WITH THE STROKE OF A PEN, JUST WRITE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER AND IT'LL HAPPEN.
AND SO YOU HAVE THIS STANDOFF BETWEEN CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS AND THE WHITE HOUSE ABOUT THIS ISSUE, AND IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ACROSS THE BOARD NOW.
[00:30:03]
NOW THAT BEING SAID, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN USING A LOT OF EXISTING LAW TO FORGIVE DEBT OF CERTAIN GROUPS, AND THEY THEIR ARGUMENT THERE IS THAT THE LAW DOES PERMIT FORGIVENESS IN LIMITED CASES.IT JUST DOES NOT PERMIT THE ADMINISTRATION TO DO IT ACROSS THE BOARD FOR EVERYONE.
SO THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF FORGIVENESS ALREADY.
IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING LOANS FORGIVEN BECAUSE THEY SAID THEY WERE DEFRAUDED BY THEIR COLLEGE, YOU KNOW, SO I THINK THERE'S A MORE PEACEABLE, PIECEMEAL APPROACH GOING ON.
THAT BEING SAID, I'M FASCINATED AS AN OBSERVER BY THIS IDEA THAT STUDENTS THAT BORROWERS WILL HAVE GONE MORE THAN TWO YEARS WITHOUT HAVING MADE A PAYMENT ON THEIR STUDENT LOANS.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE NEXT DOWNTURN? THE NEXT SCARY THING THAT WE FACE, WHETHER IT'S A RECESSION, WHETHER IT'S A WAR, YOU KNOW, ARE THEY GOING TO WHOEVER'S IN OFFICE, PAUL'S PAYMENTS AGAIN? AND SO I DO THINK THAT THERE'S THIS LIKE INTERESTING INFLECTION POINT WE'RE AT ABOUT HOW DO WE PAY FOR THE COST OF HIGHER EDUCATION AS A SOCIETY? AND IS THAT CHANGING? AND AGAIN, I JUST AND I THINK MORE AS AN ECONOMIST WHEN IT COMES TO THESE THINGS.
YOU KNOW, I DON'T JUST WANT TO I DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE BORROWERS AND WHETHER THEY'RE STRUGGLING TO TO MAKE PAYMENTS, THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.
IT WAS THE FOCUS OF MY BOOK, BUT I ALSO LOOK AT LIKE HOW MUCH AS A SOCIETY ARE WE SPENDING ON ON HIGHER EDUCATION? AND ARE WE DOING IT IN THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY? AND IF WE AREN'T, YOU KNOW, ARE THERE BETTER WAYS OUT THERE? AND IT THE ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IS THAT IF YOU PAUSE PAYMENTS, YOU KNOW, FOR TWO YEARS HERE, SIX MONTHS THERE, THREE YEARS HERE, YOU'RE DETACHING.
YOU'RE FURTHER DETACHING THAT FROM THE CONSUMER.
I KNOW THIS IS HIGHLY, HIGHLY ECONOMIC SPEAK, BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE WHAT HAPPENED WITH WHAT? IN SOME WAYS THAT'S HAPPENED WITH HEALTH CARE.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, LET'S JUST SAY INSURANCE OR WHATEVER KICKS IN.
IN THIS CASE, IT'S THE GOVERNMENT SAYING WE'RE GOING TO COVER THE COSTS.
WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR THE UNDERLYING COST OF OF THAT SERVICE AND IN HEALTH CARE, WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, HOSPITAL CHARGING HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS FOR AN ADVIL PILL? I KIND OF EXAGGERATE, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN IN HIGHER EDUCATION? WHAT IS THE LONG TERM CONSEQUENCE OF? HAVING STUDENTS TAKE OUT TENS AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN DEBT AND THEN SAYING, DON'T PAY IT.
IS THAT GOING TO FURTHER INFLATE COST INFLATION? THAT'S A VERY BIG QUESTION IN MY MIND RIGHT NOW AS A REPORTER WHO COVERS THIS STUFF.
WELL, YOU KNOW, ONE OF ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT CAME IN WAS KNOWING THAT YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, KNOWING YOU ARE A JOURNALIST, BUT ALSO KNOWING YOU ARE AN EXPERT ON THIS TOPIC, PROBABLY MORE SO THAN MOST FOLKS IN D.C..
THE QUESTION IS HOW HOW WOULD YOU ADVISE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION ON THE FEDERAL LOAN CRISIS? NOW I CAN'T.
I CAN'T. YES, I CANNOT PLAY THE ROLE OF ADVISER BECAUSE I WANT TO STAY EMPLOYED.
I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT STUDENT LOANS IS THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF BORROWERS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PROBLEMS. AND SO LIKE, LET'S LOOK AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE STUDENTS.
I WAS SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT THE OUT OF POCKET EXPENSE ON AVERAGE FOR ATTENDING A YEAR COMMUNITY COLLEGE AFTER GRANTS, AFTER SCHOLARSHIPS, AFTER PELL GRANTS IS TWELVE THOUSAND ON AVERAGE. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING DEFAULTS IS THAT MOST PEOPLE WHO DEFAULT ON STUDENT LOANS ACTUALLY A RELATIVELY LITTLE SMALL AMOUNTS OF STUDENT LOANS, YOU KNOW, EIGHT THOUSAND SIX THOUSAND.
NOW THAT'S COUNTERINTUITIVE BECAUSE YOU WOULD THINK, OK, IF YOU'RE DEFAULTING ON YOUR LOANS, IT MUST BE THIS HUGE AMOUNT AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE DEFAULTING.
AND ACTUALLY, NO, A LOT OF THESE BORROWERS ARE PEOPLE WHO ENROLLED IN A CERT PROGRAM OR A A TWO YEAR DEGREE PROGRAM, MANY OF THEM AT FOR-PROFIT COLLEGES, BUT A LOT OF THEM AT COMMUNITY COLLEGES AS WELL.
AND AND THAT'S BECAUSE THESE ARE STUDENTS WHO ARE WHO ARE AT A VERY HIGH RISK OF DROPPING OUT FOR FOR WHATEVER REASON.
THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY THEY MIGHT DROP OUT, AND DR.
MAE PROBABLY KNOWS THIS WAY MORE THAN I EVER WILL.
[00:35:01]
THE COMPLEXITIES OF PEOPLE'S LIVES AND WHY THEY DROP OUT.BUT THIS HAS BEEN AN ISSUE THAT HAS.
I LEARNED THIS WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING COLLEGE BACK IN THE FIFTIES AND FORTIES, NINETEEN FIFTIES AND NINETEEN FORTIES AND THIRTIES AND TWENTIES, AND EVEN BACK THEN THEY WERE COLLEGE WAS WAS CHARACTERIZED BY HIGH DROPOUT RATES.
I MEAN, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AN ISSUE WHERE PEOPLE ENROLL FOR A YEAR, FOR A YEAR OR TWO THERE AND THEN THEY DROP OUT.
AND A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD IT.
AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THEY CREATED THE STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM WAS TO ENSURE THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO DROP OUT BECAUSE OF FINANCIAL REASONS.
BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS.
UM, WHEN YOU GO TO COMMUNITY COLLEGE, YOU WERE AT A HIGH RISK OF DROPPING OUT AND IT.
IT STRIKES ME AS BIZARRE THAT IT'S THE POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO.
GIVE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN LOANS TO PEOPLE THAT.
ARE VERY CLEARLY GOING TO DEFAULT ON THEM.
I AVOID USING THE WORDS PREDATORY LENDING IN MY STORIES BECAUSE I DO HAVE TO BE VERY NEUTRAL AND OBJECTIVE AND BUT WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK, I WAS I WAS ABLE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A VOICE AND I DO POSE THIS QUESTION TO ANYONE.
IF IT WAS PREDATORY LENDING FOR MORTGAGE LENDERS TO GIVE LOANS TO PEOPLE THAT THEY KNEW WERE DESTINED TO FAIL BECAUSE OF, FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE HOUSE WAS TOO EXPENSIVE.
ISN'T THIS THE SAME VERSION OF THAT? AND THERE ARE GOOD INTENTIONS HERE.
I DON'T. I DON'T DISMISS THAT AT ALL.
I THINK THAT THE WHOLE PROGRAM FOR DECADES HAS BEEN CHARACTERIZED BY GOOD INTENTIONS.
AND ONE MORE ONE MORE THING THAT I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT.
I KNOW THAT I'VE MEANDERED ON THIS QUESTION, BUT I THINK I'M HOPING THAT MY ANSWERS LEAD TO MORE INTERESTING QUESTIONS AND CONVERSATION.
BUT THERE WAS A NATIONAL STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT GOT INVOLVED.
IT WAS CALLED USA FUNDS, AND IT WAS FUNDED BY PRIVATE EQUITY CORP., A PRIVATE COMPANY CEOS, AS WELL AS THE SCHOOLS THEMSELVES.
THEY WOULD PUT MONEY INTO A POT AND THAT POT OF MONEY WOULD LEND MONEY TO STUDENTS, OR THE BANK WOULD LEND THEM LEND MONEY JUST TO A STUDENT AND THEN THE POT OF MONEY WOULD REIMBURSE THE BANK IF THE STUDENT DEFAULTED.
SO THIS WAS A PRIVATELY FUNDED NATIONAL STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM, AND THE DEFAULT RATES WERE PRETTY LOW.
IT WAS A PRETTY SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM IF YOU WANTED TO LOOK AT PEOPLE REPAYING THEIR LOANS.
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WAS BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT LEND MONEY TO FIRST YEAR STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY KNEW IF YOU WERE A FIRST YEAR STUDENT, YOU WERE AT SUCH A HIGH RISK OF DROPPING OUT THAT IT DIDN'T JUSTIFY GIVING YOU A LOAN.
AND BUT NOW THE GOVERNMENT DOES THAT EVERY DAY.
AND LO AND BEHOLD, LIKE DEFAULT RATES ARE INCREDIBLY HIGH, PARTICULARLY AT THESE SHORTER DURATION PROGRAMS. AND SO I GUESS IF YOU'RE ASKING ME, LIKE, WHAT WOULD I ADVISE SOMEONE AGAIN? I CAN'T ADVISE ON POLICY.
THAT'S NOT MY ROLE, BUT I CAN CLARIFY THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THERE IS SUCH A HIGH LEVEL OF DEFAULT IS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT CONTINUES TO GIVE LOANS TO PEOPLE THAT, YOU KNOW, ON PAPER, CLEARLY ARE DESTINED TO FAIL.
I MEAN, THE THING THAT'S CHALLENGING ABOUT THAT IS.
WHO MAKES AN ASSESSMENT ABOUT A STUDENT THAT THEY'RE DESTINED TO FAIL BEFORE THEY'VE ENGAGED IN AN INSTITUTION? I MEAN, IF IF THAT IS THE IF THAT IS THE DYNAMIC UNDER WHICH WE OPERATE, THEN GENERALLY ONLY WEALTHY STUDENTS FROM HIGH PERFORMING HIGH SCHOOLS WOULD ACCESS HIGHER EDUCATION.
AND MOST STUDENTS WHO LOOK LIKE ME WOULD NEVER HAVE ACCESS TO OPPORTUNITIES.
THE CHALLENGES AND PERILS OF PEOPLE TAKING ON DEBT AND THEN NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPLETE EDUCATION AND HAVE EMPLOYMENT TO TO PAY IT, BUT SOMEONE'S GOT TO MAKE A BET ON THESE STUDENTS AND TO ME, WHY NOT INSTITUTIONS LIKE DALLAS COLLEGE AND WHY NOT THE GOVERNMENT? DON'T GET ME WRONG, I AGREE THAT THERE'S A PLACE FOR BEING EDUCATED ABOUT THE COST OF OF EDUCATION, OF EDUCATION AND FINANCIAL AID IN THE VARIOUS FORMS AND WHAT IT MEANS.
BUT I THINK SORT OF A BLANKET, LET'S NOT LEND MONEY WHO ARE DESTINED TO FAIL IS SORT OF A VERY DEFICIT BASED MODEL THAT WOULD MEAN THAT OUR MOST VULNERABLE STUDENTS WOULD NEVER ACCESS HIGHER EDUCATION.
RIGHT, SO I HAVE THIS SEEN IN MY BOOK, WHERE IN TWO THOUSAND FOURTEEN, I WANT TO SAY I MIGHT GET THE YEAR WRONG.
THERE WAS A CRISIS FACING A LOT OF STUDENTS WHO WENT TO SCHOOLS THAT RELIED ALONG ON THIS
[00:40:02]
PROGRAM, CALLED PARENT PLUS LOANS.AND THESE THIS AFFECTED A LOT OF HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES, INCLUDING LIKE HOWARD UNIVERSITY, WHERE THE GOVERNMENT, FOR A REALLY COMPLICATED BUREAUCRATIC SNAFU, TIGHTENED UNDERWRITING STANDARDS, WHICH MEANS IT BASICALLY MADE IT HARDER FOR PARENTS TO QUALIFY FOR PARENT PLUS LOANS.
AND THAT MEANT THAT A LOT OF STUDENTS SHOWED UP.
THROUGHOUT THE SEMESTER, AND WE'RE TOLD ALL OF A SUDDEN YOUR MOM, YOUR MOM OR DAD NO LONGER QUALIFIES FOR THIS TWENTY THOUSAND ALONE, IF YOU CAN'T COME UP WITH TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS, YOU CAN NO LONGER GO HERE.
AND THAT CREATED A REALLY BIG CRISIS.
THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION EVENTUALLY ROLLED BACK THE STANDARDS SO THAT ESSENTIALLY LIKE IT WENT, IT WASN'T QUITE DIDN'T QUITE GO BACK TO THE OLD STANDARDS, BUT IT LOOSENED THEM AGAIN SO THAT ALL THOSE FAMILIES CAN AGAIN QUALIFY FOR PARENT PLUS LOANS.
AND THIS, I THINK, HIGHLIGHTS THE TENSION OF THE 60 YEAR EXPERIMENT IN STUDENT LENDING.
KATRINA, I THINK, LIKE YOU LIKE, COMPLETELY HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.
WHEN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WAS DEBATING THIS, THERE WAS ONE CAMP THAT BASICALLY HIS ECONOMIC ADVISERS, WHO WENT TO AN OUTSIDE CONSULTANT AND SAID, CAN YOU LOOK AT THE FINANCIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THESE FAMILIES THAT ARE TAKING OUT ALL THIS DEBT? AND CAN YOU TELL US BASED ON WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT THE DEFAULT RATE IS GOING TO BE? AND THE CONSULTANT CAME BACK AND SAID, YES, IF YOU CONTINUE LENDING MONEY TO FAMILIES THAT TEND TO HAVE LOWER INCOMES THAT IN SOME CASES DON'T HAVE JOBS THAT ARE INTO RETIREMENT, IN SOME CASES INTO RETIREMENT.
I TALK WITH GRANDPARENTS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE SKY HIGH DEFAULT RATES AND THEY, HIS ECONOMIC ADVISERS OR AT LEAST TWO OF THEM THAT I QUOTE IN THE BOOK OR SORT OF MENTION IN THE BOOK WERE SAYING, WE SHOULDN'T DO THIS.
THIS IS THIS IS A FORM OF PREDATORY LENDING, ESSENTIALLY, AND WE'RE SETTING THESE FAMILIES UP TO FAIL AND WE'RE NOT DOING THEM A FAVOR.
AND THEN YOU HAD THIS, THIS OTHER CAMP.
JIM SHELTON WAS THE THE DEPUTY SECRETARY AT THE TIME IN THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT WHO SAID, NO, IT'S NOT OUR JOB TO AS AS A GOVERNMENT TO GET IN THE WAY OF PEOPLE'S ACCESS TO THE COLLEGE OF THEIR CHOICE, AND THAT THIS IS A KEY LIFELINE FOR STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO GO TO HOWARD UNIVERSITY THAT OTHERWISE WOULDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO.
AND SO I THINK THAT THAT IS THE MAIN TENSION.
I THINK THAT. I I HAVE TWO POINTS THAT I THINK, THOUGH I WOULD SAY IN RESPONSE, ONE IS THAT I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS PRETENDED LIKE THAT ISSUE ISN'T THERE.
WHEN IT WHEN IT PASSES THE BUDGET EVERY YEAR, IT HAS OVERSTATED THE ABILITY OF.
PARENTS, PARENTS OR STUDENTS IN GENERAL REPAYING THEIR LOANS, AND SO FROM A BUDGETARY PERSPECTIVE. IT LOOKS THE PROGRAM HAS LOOKED PRETTY PROFITABLE FOR A LONG TIME AND NO LONGER IS, BUT IT WAS USING NUMBERS THAT WERE THAT USED VERY ROSY ASSUMPTIONS FOR THE ABILITY OF PEOPLE TO REPAY, AND SO THE GOVERNMENT ACTED LIKE THERE WAS NO PROBLEM.
AND NUMBER TWO, YOU KNOW, I WAS TALKING WITH WITH THE FORMER HEAD OF THE OF OF OF ONE OF THE TRADE GROUPS THAT THAT LOBBIES FOR HBCUS.
AND HE WAS ACTUALLY HIS NAME IS JOHNNIE TAYLOR.
AND HE WAS HE WAS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE ADVOCATES WHO WAS SAYING, YOU NEED TO ROLL BACK THESE UNDERWRITING STANDARDS SO THAT PARENTS CAN ONCE AGAIN QUALIFY FOR THESE PARENT PLUS LOANS. SO HE WAS ON THAT SIDE THAT WAS SAYING LIKE, DON'T DENY ACCESS TO THESE LOANS SO THAT STUDENTS CAN CONTINUE TO GO TO THE SCHOOL OF THEIR CHOICE.
BUT HE DID TELL ME, HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I DO THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE LIMITS ON PARENT PLUS LOANS BECAUSE THERE ARE PARENTS WHO ARE TAKING OUT WAY TOO MUCH MONEY THAT THEY'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO REPAY, AND IT REALLY DOES AFFECT THEM.
I MEAN, THE GOVERNMENT IS GARNISHING SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS OF SENIORS INCREASINGLY TO RECOVER UNPAID STUDENT DEBT AND A LOT OF CASES, A LOT OF THESE SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS ARE THEIR ONLY SOURCE OF INCOME.
AND SO THERE IS A REAL AND TANGIBLE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE WHEN FAMILIES TAKE ON DEBT THAT THEY CAN'T REPAY. IT REALLY DOES HAVE BAD CONSEQUENCES THAT THAT ENDS UP HARMING THEM IN A LOT OF CASES.
BUT I WOULD SAY THIS JUST IN RESPONSE TO YOUR POINT ABOUT.
I THINK YOUR POINT WAS IF STUDENTS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO LOANS, THEN THE GOVERNMENT IS IS LIMITING CHOICES.
BUT LIKE I ALSO THINK, LIKE YOU POINTED OUT, THIS IS SOMETHING JOHNNY TAYLOR TOLD ME.
[00:45:02]
THERE ARE CHOICES, THERE ARE CHEAPER OPTIONS, THERE IS DALLAS COLLEGE THERE, THERE IS COMMUNITY COLLEGE. THERE IS THE, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH I ARGUE THAT THE FOUR YEAR IN-STATE PUBLIC COLLEGE TUITION HAS GONE UP BY A PRETTY BIG AMOUNT IN A LOT OF STATES.AND SO I POSE THE DILEMMA THAT YOU JUST POSED, WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DON'T GIVE STUDENTS ACCESS TO THESE LOANS, THEN THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO TO COLLEGE OF THEIR CHOICE. I SAID THAT TO JOHNNY TAYLOR.
I SAID, WELL, LIKE IF YOU CUT OFF ACCESS TO PARENT PLUS LOANS, THEN STUDENTS ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE CHOICE TO GO TO HOWARD.
THEY MIGHT HAVE TO GO TO ANOTHER SCHOOL THAT'S NOT THEIR TOP CHOICE.
AND HE GOES, WELL, LIFE IS FULL OF TOUGH CHOICES.
AND HE WASN'T I DIDN'T TAKE HIM TO MEAN THAT HE WAS BEING FLIP I.
I TOOK HIM TO MEAN THAT THERE ARE MORE AFFORDABLE OPTIONS THAT.
UM, THERE IS A THERE IS A THIRD WAY, IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
IT'S AND I DON'T THINK YOU EITHER HAVE TO GIVE A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY AND LOANS TO STUDENTS WHO ARE NEVER GOING TO REPAY OR ELSE STUDENTS ARE NOT GOING TO GO TO COLLEGE.
I THINK THAT THERE'S THIS THIRD OPTION.
AND AND I THINK ALL TOO OFTEN WE'VE WE SORT OF IGNORED THAT THIRD OPTION AS A AS A SOCIETY. KATRINA, LET ME TURN TO YOU, BECAUSE THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT PARENT PLUS LOANS MADE ME THINK ABOUT THE PARENT PROMISE.
AND SO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PROMISE THAT OBVIOUSLY PROVIDES STUDENTS AND PARENTS AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO.
AND FIRST, LET ME SAY, JOSH, I 100 PERCENT AGREE WITH YOU, I AM NOT A FAN OF A PARENT PLUS LOAN. I DON'T THINK PARENTS SHOULD TAKE ON DEBT TO FINANCE THEIR STUDENTS EDUCATION, AND THERE ARE REASONABLE PLACES FOR STUDENTS TO TAKE ON DEBT.
SO FOR US, IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS LARGE POPULATION OF STUDENTS, SO WE HAVE NINETY THOUSAND STUDENTS OR SO THAT HAVE COME THROUGH OUR COHORTS AND THINK ABOUT THEIR FAMILIES, MOST OF OUR STUDENTS ARE FIRST GENERATION STUDENTS, SO THEIR PARENTS HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO COLLEGE EITHER.
AND SO THE PARENT PROMISE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PARENTS OF OUR STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS EDUCATION THEMSELVES.
SO IF YOUR STUDENT IS PART OF OUR COHORT, YOU'RE AND YOU, YOU TAKE THE PLEDGE.
THE PARENT COULD TAKE A PLEDGE AND IF THEIR FAMILY INCOME IS FIFTY FIVE THOUSAND OR LESS, THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY THEN TO HAVE THEIR TUITION COVERED AT DALLAS COLLEGE OR POTENTIALLY ONE OF OUR FOUR YEAR PARTNERS AS WELL.
SO THIS IS AN EXCITING WAY TO EXPAND POST-SECONDARY CREDENTIAL ATTAINMENT IN DALLAS COUNTY. IT'S A WONDERFUL WAY FOR US TO THANK THE PARENTS FOR THE SUPPORT THAT THEY'VE GIVEN TO STUDENTS AND TO SAY WE WOULD NOW LIKE TO SUPPORT YOU AS WELL.
DO YOU HAVE A DREAM OF GETTING YOUR FIRST DEGREE OR IF YOU HAVE AN ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE, GETTING A BACHELOR'S DEGREE? AND HOW MIGHT WE SUPPORT YOU THERE? PARENT PROMISE IS ACTUALLY PRETTY SIGNIFICANTLY.
WE HAVE JUST A FEW HUNDRED PARENTS EVERY YEAR WHO PROBABLY ACCESS IT, SO IT'S SOMETHING WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE PARENTS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF.
RIGHT, THANKS, KATRINA. WELL, LET ME LET ME ASK, I MEAN, FOR AN INSTITUTION LIKE DALLAS COLLEGE THAT IS, YOU KNOW, SEVENTY NINE DOLLARS A CREDIT HOUR WHICH INCLUDES, YOU KNOW, TRANSIT PASSES, WHICH INCLUDES TEXTBOOK COSTS.
WE CERTAINLY TRY TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO HELP SUPPORT STUDENTS AND PARTNERING WITH FOLKS LIKE THE PROMISE.
SO REALLY, THIS QUESTION GOES TO ANY ROLE ON THE PANEL.
WHAT WHAT DO INSTITUTIONS LIKE OURS NEED TO DO TO HELP STUDENTS AVOID ENDED UP BEING IN A LOAN SITUATION? BECAUSE OFTENTIMES WE FIND STUDENTS THAT ASSUME THAT FINANCIAL AID IS IS FOR SOMEONE ELSE, NOT FOR THEM.
SO. SO ANY THOUGHTS OF WHAT INSTITUTIONS CAN DO? YOU KNOW, IF I MIGHT JUST JUST JUMP IN AND MAYBE THEN THROW IT BACK TO WITH A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS RELATED TO IT? YOU KNOW, IT REALLY IS ABOUT BEING STUDENT CENTRIC AND AND FOCUSING ON THE NEEDS OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS AND HOW TO REALLY ELIMINATE THE BARRIERS THAT ARE GETTING IN THE WAY OF THEM.
BEING ABLE TO GET A HIGH QUALITY EDUCATION AT THE LOWEST POSSIBLE COST, AT BEING ABLE TO MINIMIZE DEBT AND REALLY BE ABLE TO THEN ENGAGE AND BUILD THAT A GREAT LIFE.
I MEAN, I'M REALLY PROUD THAT WE HAVE STUDENTS THAT THIS YEAR 3000 GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL WITH ASSOCIATE DEGREES AND THEY CAN GO ON IN A YEAR OR TWO AND GET A BACHELOR'S DEGREES AND THEY'RE GOING TO WORK.
AND OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND OTHER EMPLOYERS HERE IN THE AREA WHEN THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, 19 AND 20 YEARS OLD, MAKING MAKING GREAT SALARIES AND HAVE NO DEBT.
BUT YOU KNOW, JOSH, I THINK THE PART THAT PROBABLY A, YOU KNOW, I GET THE POLICY SIDE OF
[00:50:07]
IT AND I GET THAT NOT EVERYONE IS ABLE TO CONNECT THE DOTS ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL AND THAT WE YOU KNOW THAT THAT INDIVIDUALS MAY NOT ALWAYS HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS AND IN BUT THEN IT IT KIND OF FLIPS TO THOSE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE BASICALLY SAYING NO, NOW.IT'S NOT ABOUT STUDENTS, ABOUT US, AND IT'S ABOUT US MAXIMIZING REVENUE FROM FROM STUDENTS AS PART OF THIS EQUATION.
AND LOOK AT THIS, WE'VE GOT THE GOVERNMENT WILLING TO JUST RIGHT ALMOST GIVE PEOPLE A BLANK CHECK TO COME, COME IN OUR DOORS AND THEREFORE WE CAN CHARGE AS MUCH AS THE MARKET WILL BEAR. AND MORE PEOPLE WILL COME IF I EXAGGERATED THE OVERSTATED WHAT, WHAT, WHAT'S GOING ON WITH SOME OF OUR OTHER INSTITUTIONS AND MANY NOT JUST FOR PROFIT, BUT BUT IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR? YEAH, YEAH, I WOULD.
I USE THE WORD BLANK CHECK A LOT IN MY BOOK BECAUSE THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT IS.
I MEAN, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RE THERE IS A LIMIT ON HOW MUCH AN UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT CAN BORROW. BUT IF THERE IS ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND THE TUITION, THE PARENT JUST COMES IN AND FILLS THE GAP.
SAME THING WITH GRAD SCHOOL GRAD STUDENTS CAN BORROW UNLIMITED AMOUNTS.
AND SO BASICALLY, WHATEVER THE SCHOOL CHARGE IS, THERE'S SOME WAY THAT THERE IS A WAY FOR YOU TO TAKE ON ENOUGH DEBT, EITHER BETWEEN YOU OR YOUR YOUR PARENTS TO TO BASICALLY PAY THAT AMOUNT. I WILL SAY THIS I, I I DEVOTED A CHAPTER TO FOR PROFIT COLLEGES.
I ACTUALLY FOCUSED ON THIS NATIONAL EMPIRE OF FOR PROFIT LAW SCHOOLS THAT HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH STUDENTS DEFAULTING.
I'VE AND EVEN TALKING WITH THE OWNERS OF THAT COMPANY, THEY WERE REALLY ADAMANT THAT THEY WERE PROVIDING OPPORTUNITY, THAT THEY WERE GIVING OPPORTUNITY TO STUDENTS WHO COULD NOT GET INTO MIDDLE TIER OR UPPER TIER LAW SCHOOLS, AND THEY WERE VERY ANTI-ELITIST.
IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE LIKE A LOT OF A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE FOR PROFIT EDUCATION SECTOR WILL LIKE BASH, YOU KNOW, IVY LEAGUE COLLEGES AND PRIVATE NONPROFIT COLLEGES AND INCREASINGLY PUBLIC COLLEGES FOR SAYING, LOOK, YOU GUYS SAY YOU HAVE THIS PUBLIC MISSION, BUT YOU'RE SO EXCLUSIVE AND SO ELITE THAT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWING IN THE NEEDIEST MOST AT RISK STUDENTS. AND WE'RE DOING THAT.
YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THEY HAVE A POINT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THEY HAD A REALLY STRONG POINT WHEN I INTERVIEWED THEM, WHICH IS IF HARVARD OR NOT, EVEN HARVARD, IF IF YOU JUST TAKE AN ORDINARY MIDDLE TIER SCHOOL IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW IN PEOPLE WITH, YOU KNOW, THIS LSAT SCORE BECAUSE IT'S TOO LOW.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO PROVIDE THEM THAT OPPORTUNITY SO THAT WE CAN, YOU KNOW, SO THAT SO THAT WE CAN PROVIDE A SOCIETAL NEED.
WE CAN. A SOCIETAL NEED AND DO A SOCIETAL GOOD AND OH YEAH, BY THE WAY, YES, WE ARE.
WE ARE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT.
BUT BUT WE THINK THAT THAT CAN GO HAND IN HAND.
AND I JUST THINK A LOT OF TIMES THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO REALLY DRANK THE KOOL-AID AND AND IN SOME CASES LIED TO THEMSELVES ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND CONVENIENTLY IGNORED A LOT OF DATA THAT SAID THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF PROBLEMS HAPPENING WITH, WITH STUDENTS TAKING ON TOO MUCH DEBT THAT THEY COULDN'T AFFORD TO REPAY.
I DO THINK THAT IT HITS AND I DO THINK THAT THAT HITS ON A QUESTION WHICH AN UNDERLYING QUESTION THAT I DON'T KNOW IF WE'VE.
REALLY ANSWERED AS A SOCIETY, WHICH IS.
IS COLLEGE FOR EVERYONE AND SHOULD EVERYONE? AT WHAT PRICE? IN OTHER WORDS.
AND I SAY THIS IN THE CONCLUSION OF MY BOOK, YOU KNOW, IS PROVIDING TWO YEARS OF FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGE ENOUGH.
OR DO WE NEED TO ALSO ENABLE SOMEONE IF THEY WANT TO GO TO THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA VERSUS THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND? TO TAKE ON ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND IN DEBT OR THEIR PARENTS AND BROTHER TAKE ON A COMBINED ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THOUSAND IN DEBT, THAT'S A FAMILY THAT I PROFILED IN MY BOOK.
YOU KNOW, IN OTHER WORDS, LIKE OUR COUNTRY, I THINK CULTURALLY WE HAVE REALLY EMPHASIZED THE NEED FOR MAXIMAL CHOICE AND MAXIMUM ACCESS THAT WE SORT OF AVOID ANSWERING
[00:55:03]
THOSE QUESTIONS. AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS IS EVERYONE HAS THE CHOICE TO GO TO WHATEVER COLLEGE OR PROGRAM THEY WANT TO, AT WHATEVER PRICE.AND SO BECAUSE WE AVOID TALKING ABOUT TOUGH CHOICES LIKE THAT'S THE SITUATION WE END UP IN, IS PEOPLE GOING TO COLLEGES AT EXORBITANT PRICES OR SCHOOLS THAT MIGHT NOT OFFER THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION.
AND AND YES, THAT WHOLE SYSTEM RELIES ON A CERTAIN LEVEL OF NAIVETE AND WISHFUL THINKING AMONG FAMILIES.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO MORE NOBLE PURSUIT THAN TO GET AN EDUCATION IN OUR SOCIETY.
AND I THINK A LOT OF SCHOOLS HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF THAT WHILE CONVENIENTLY, CONVENIENTLY TELLING THEMSELVES THAT THEY'RE DOING FAMILIES A FAVOR.
I DON'T THINK IT'S LIMITED TO THE FOR PROFIT SCHOOLS.
I THINK THAT IT'S IT'S IT'S A MENTALITY THAT HAS ALSO BEEN ADOPTED BY A LOT OF SELECTIVE OR I GUESS THE NEW WORD IS HIGHLY REJECTED OF PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS AS WELL AS SOME STATE FLAGSHIPS. BUT YES, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A BIG BROWN.
SO I THINK THE KEY IS IS MATCH AND FIT.
SO WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING AN INSTITUTION, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE PLACE THAT IS BEST FOR YOU ACADEMICALLY, FINANCIALLY AND SOCIAL EMOTIONALLY.
SO THE AMOUNT OF DEBT THAT YOU MIGHT NEED TO TAKE ON IS ONE FACTOR.
YOU KNOW, ANOTHER FACTOR EVERYONE SHOULD SHOULD ASK WHAT KIND OF SUPPORTS AN INSTITUTION WILL OFFER TO HELP MAKE SURE THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL? I DON'T THINK THAT ANY PERSON, STUDENT OR FAMILY MEMBER SHOULD TAKE ON $100000 PLUS OF DEBT FOR AN UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION.
I THINK THERE IS ALSO A DISTINCTION FOR A PROFESSIONAL DEGREE, LIKE A LAW SCHOOL.
THAT'S ALSO A REALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT A LAW SCHOOL, LISTEN, I HAVE AN ELITE LAW SCHOOL EDUCATION THAT WAS WORTH PROBABLY ABOUT $200000.
DID I PAY $200000 FOR IT? NO, I PAID SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN THAT.
BUT EVEN IN TAKING ON SIX FIGURES IN DEBT, I WENT TO AN INSTITUTION THAT HAD A 99 PERCENT PLUS JOB PLACEMENT RATE, AND EIGHTY FIVE PERCENT OF THOSE GRADUATES ENDED UP IN CORPORATE LAW, WHERE THE FIRST YEAR SALARY IS MORE THAN WHAT MY DEBT WAS.
AND SO I MADE AN EDUCATED DECISION ABOUT TAKING ON THAT DEBT BASED ON THE ABILITY THEN TO PAY IT BACK. AND SO PART OF WHAT WE HAVE TO DO AND PART OF OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS HELPING OUR FAMILIES AND STUDENTS KNOW WHAT QUESTIONS TO ASK SO THAT THEY'RE MAKING AN EDUCATED DECISION WHEN THEY CHOOSE AN INSTITUTION AND THAT THEY'RE NOT TAKING ON DEBT FOR AN INSTITUTION THAT ISN'T GOING TO SUPPORT THEM TO GRADUATE AND GET A JOB.
THE EDUCATION AROUND WHAT COLLEGE COSTS AND WHAT IS A GRANT VERSUS A LOAN.
THOSE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS NEED TO HAPPEN WITH STUDENTS AND FAMILIES IN SEVENTH OR EIGHTH GRADE NINTH GRADE AT THE LATEST, SO THAT BY THE TIME SENIOR YEAR COMES AROUND, THERE'S NOT A PARENT WHO IS FALLEN INTO THE TRAP OF WANTING THEIR STUDENT TO GO TO THE DREAM SCHOOL SO THAT THEY TAKE ON $20000 A YEAR IN PARENT PLUS LOANS AND TRAP THEMSELVES.
IT'S IT'S THAT EDUCATION PIECE IS CRUCIAL IN MANY STEPS ALONG A STUDENT'S JOURNEY, STARTING AS EARLY AS SIXTH GRADE.
AND IF IT IS DONE RIGHT, THEN THE STUDENT, I THINK, WILL END UP AT AN INSTITUTION THAT IS A GOOD FIT FOR THEM AND WILL SUPPORT THEM IN A WAY THAT THEY'LL BE SUCCESSFUL AND BE ABLE TO OBTAIN A GOOD WAGE CAREER WITH MINIMAL DEBT.
SO I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU.
LIKE GENUINE QUESTION, NOT NOT LEADING WHATSOEVER.
ONE OF THE STUDENTS I PROFILED IN MY BOOK WAS IN LIKE THE BOTTOM 10 PERCENTILE OF LSAT SCORES. UM, SHOULD THAT PERSON HAVE ACCESS TO LAW SCHOOL? IN YOUR VIEW? BECAUSE I'VE I'VE NEVER BEEN A LAWYER AND I'M NEVER GOING TO LAW SCHOOL.
MM HMM. YES, AND THEY'RE INSTITUTIONS WHERE THEY WOULDN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO GO SIX FIGURES IN DEBT TO BE ABLE TO DO SO.
AND SO, LIKE, IS THERE? LIKE SO 50 THOUSAND, IF THAT STUDENT TOOK ON FIFTY THOUSAND BECAUSE I THINK THE STUDENT THAT I PROFILED AND I'D HAVE TO READ MY BOOK AGAIN, HE LASTED A SEMESTER AND LEFT WITH LIKE THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS IN DEBT AND AND NEVER PAID A PENNY BECAUSE HE NEVER GOT A JOB. THAT IS A CHALLENGING SITUATION.
AND I WOULD ARGUE YES, BECAUSE OF THE STRUCTURE WHERE MANY LAW SCHOOLS WILL PROVIDE LOAN FORGIVENESS FOR THOSE WHO WORK IN PUBLIC SERVICE.
SO IF YOU DON'T COME OUT MAKING THE KIND OF SALARY THAT ALLOWS YOU TO PAY BACK YOUR LOANS, THEY'LL PAY BACK THOSE LOANS FOR YOU AND THEN THINKING ABOUT THE CITY UNIVERSITY SYSTEM OR A STATE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM WHERE THE COSTS ARE MUCH MORE MANAGEABLE BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT LAW SCHOOL YOU WENT TO.
[01:00:04]
UH, I WENT TO NYU LAW.OK, SO BECAUSE THAT'S THAT'S THE ONE OF THE BIG CONCEPTS I WRESTLED WITH WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS, YOU KNOW, I'M TALKING WITH THE OWNER OF THIS FOR PROFIT LAW SCHOOL.
I THINK THAT THE INVESTORS OF THIS SCHOOL GOT REALLY RICH OFF OF THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS WHO ENDED UP IN REALLY BIG FINANCIAL TROUBLE FOR THEIR LOANS.
AND YET, YOU KNOW, HE SAID, LOOK LIKE WE WANTED TO GIVE THIS PERSON AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE A LAWYER. NO, NO OTHER SCHOOL IS DOING THAT.
AND WE HAD THE MOST GRADUATE BLACK LAW SCHOOL GRADUATES OF ANY CLASS IN THAT PARTICULAR YEAR. WE WERE PROVIDING ACCESS AND.
BUT LIKE THE STUDENT I JUST PROFILED HAS THREE THOUSAND HANGING OVER HIS HEAD.
IT'S PROBABLY NOW FIFTY THOUSAND.
AND AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, HE HAS HIS CREDIT IS COMPLETELY SHOT AND THAT'S GOING TO IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE THAT FOR FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS.
AND AND I'M JUST THINKING LIKE, OK.
IS THERE ANOTHER OPTION LIKE? YOU KNOW, WHY DOESN'T END WHY YOU TAKE A TAKE A CHANCE ON THAT STUDENT AND IF SO, WHY? YEAH, WHY? WHY DON'T THEY PUT UP MONEY AND AND DO THAT IF THEY IF THEY HAVE A SOCIAL MISSION, A PUBLIC MISSION? I MEAN, WE COULD GET INTO A LONG DEBATE ABOUT THIS, I'M SUPER PROUD OF MY INSTITUTION WHO HAS A SIGNIFICANT POOL OF MONEY FOR FIRST GENERATION STUDENTS.
STUDENTS WHO ARE NO FAMILY MEMBER HAS EVER OBTAINED A DEGREE BEFORE FULL TUITION SCHOLARSHIPS FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WORK IN PUBLIC SERVICE.
SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THE INSTITUTION THAT I ATTENDED IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.
BUT TO YOUR COUNTEREXAMPLE, I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE INSTITUTION THAT THAT STUDENT SELECTED DIDN'T PROVIDE THE RIGHT KIND OF SUPPORTS FOR THEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
SO IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT LAW SCHOOL IN PARTICULAR, IF AN INSTITUTION DOESN'T HAVE A GOOD BAR PASSAGE RATE, YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GET A JOB IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LICENSE.
SO THAT'S ANOTHER BARRIER THAT SOMEONE SHOULD THINK ABOUT.
AN INSTITUTION MIGHT TAKE A CHANCE ON YOU, BUT IF THE CHANCES OF YOU ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO ENTER THE PROFESSION ARE SLIM, IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE RIGHT INSTITUTION FOR YOU OR FOR ANYONE. MAYBE. WELL, SO GREAT, GREAT CONVERSATION, AND I'M GETTING THE VIRTUAL HOOK HERE TO FOR US TO WRAP UP, BUT GREAT DIALOG, GREAT CONVERSATION EXACTLY WHAT WE WOULD.
WE HOPED IT WOULD BE SUCH AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION FOR THE COMMUNITY.
SO THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR JOINING US AND BY WAY OF WRAPPING IT UP, DR.
MAYO, I'LL KICK IT TO YOU TO KIND OF GIVE SOME FINAL THOUGHTS HERE.
AND JOSH, AGAIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
GREAT. GREAT DISCUSSION TODAY AS WE REALLY TALK ABOUT THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE AND AND OBVIOUSLY, IT IS A COMPLEX ISSUE THAT AFFECTS INDIVIDUALS.
BUT I DO THINK, YOU KNOW, LISTENING TO THE GOOD INTENTIONS DOESN'T ALWAYS JUSTIFY THE OUTCOMES THAT WE SEE TAKE PLACE WITH WITH INDIVIDUALS.
AND I DO THINK THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO REALLY ADDRESS THESE NEEDS AND ISSUES THERE.
WELL, AS YOU POINTED OUT, I AM WINDING DOWN HERE.
THIS IS MY LAST WEEK AS CHANCELLOR AND LAST CHANCE.
I'LL HAVE TO REALLY TALK TO ALL OF YOU THAT ARE HERE TODAY AND THANK SO MANY OF YOU FOR JOINING IN FOR THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION AND AND BEING A PART OF IT.
I JUST WANT TO THANK ONCE AGAIN OUR STUDENTS, OUR FACULTY, OUR STAFF, OUR LEADERSHIP AT DALLAS COLLEGE FOR REALLY HAVING THE HEART IN THE RIGHT PLACE FOR CARING ABOUT THESE TOPICS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SO THAT YOU DID TUNE IN TODAY, YOU LISTENED AND I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE THIS BACK WITH YOU.
AND AND FOR THOSE THAT CAN GET THEIR LOANS FORGIVEN, I HOPE YOU WILL GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS. I'VE BEEN CALLING EVERYBODY I KNOW TO TELL THEM TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS, OF THIS OPPORTUNITY.
BUT AS I, AS I STATED EARLIER, I'M EXCITED ABOUT THE THE YEARS AHEAD FOR DALLAS COLLEGE UNDER UNDER GREAT LEADERSHIP.
I, YOU KNOW, WILL THIS WON'T BE THE LAST SPEAKING EVENT IN THIS ROLE, ALTHOUGH IT COULD BE THE WAY THE WEATHER'S GOING.
I SEE THINGS CANCELING OUT THERE, JUSTIN, SO THAT CALL.
THOSE CALLS ARE GOING TO KEEP COMING IN MORE AND MORE AS AS THE THE DAY GOES ON TODAY.
BUT BUT AGAIN, THANK ALL OF YOU SO MUCH AND REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR YOUR TIME TODAY ON THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC.
TAKE CARE.
* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.